Perspectives on a College Education

So bezrat Hashem we'll we'll let's begin on on the topic of the value of secular education. And then I'll I'll try with bezrat Hashem to respond to a few of the the questions that were submitted. And then those who are still awake, we'll we'll open it up to to any power points of questions or or requests for clarification. There's a profound dialectic which characterizes avodat Hashem, which characterizes life. On the one hand, we're called upon to have a single-minded intensity and passion. Usually associated with extreme, with lack of balance, lack of nuance, but then on the other hand, avodat Hashem demands balance, nuance, and and being measured. Examples of of where that balance is required: there are so many halakhic Torah claims and and demands on our time. Talmud Torah, Chesed, Hishtadlut l'parnasa, family, Tzorchei tzibur. And how does one balance those in terms of time, competing claims upon us? Another example: on the one hand, as Chazal caution us, the the Rambam writes in halakha, that we should be mindful of what influences we expose ourselves to because דרך אדם להיות נמשך בדעותיו, a person is influenced by those with whom he associates, by those by whom he is surrounded. So how do we balance sensitivity to that on the one hand with interacting with Jews who are not yet religious, not yet shomrei Torah u'mitzvot, especially within our own families as as is often the case? One of the areas in which we're called upon to strike the right balance in avodat Hashem is in our attitude to the outside world, to things outside of Torah. Obviously, we have to identify for what it is and and reject anything and everything that's not true, anything and everything that runs contrary to Torah. Me'idach gisa, chochma bagoyim ta'amin, where we have to acknowledge what is true and and valuable. Sometimes, when halakha says for instance that if there's a question of pikuach nefesh, so we look to expert medical information, so the halakha says explicitly that the source of that expert medical information isn't going to necessarily only be Jewish doctors. The sources may be non-Jewish doctors and they may be the experts in in the relevant field. So we can't, we cannot indiscriminately reject everything which comes from the outside world, we obviously obviously cannot indiscriminately accept everything that comes from from the outside world. So we have to strike the right balance, again, balance. that's appropriate in this context. Balance might be 1% and 99%, it might be 0.0001% and 99.999%—I don't remember how many zeros there were—99.999%. So balance isn't—doesn't—doesn't imply that it's a 50-50 division. And I don't know that conceptually that this needs to be true. It doesn't need to be true conceptually, but practically, in our generation, Bnei Torah with a good secular education have a much easier time. And again, in part, a good secular education means that the right balance exists between the limmudei kodesh and lehavdil, limmudei chol. And that the limmudei chol are studied discriminatingly. But Bnei Torah with a good secular education have a much easier time of recognizing the need for and striking that balance in the vital area of how we relate to the outside world. Why is that the case? So perhaps, I don't know, perhaps this is speculative—I think until now, I don't think it was speculative, but this—this is speculative—perhaps for the following reason. Consider משל למה הדבר דומה. I think many of us live in more or less homogeneous communities. More or less. And I think many, maybe most of us, in terms of the schools that we attended, it's also more or less homogeneous. And obviously within the spectrum of frum Jews, the spectrum is much more heterogeneous than our immediate exposure. Usually, not always the case, but for many of us, that is the case. And when that is the case, so what happens sometimes is that since we don't have any exposure, sort of any meaningful personal contact with other communities, that what we in quotation marks know of them is based on stereotypes. That community X is such and such and we have the stereotype that depicts community X, and community Y is such and such with its stereotype, and our own community for others has its stereotype as well. And stereotypes as we know tend to be indiscriminating and undiscerning. When instead of our again in quotation marks, our knowledge of other communities, other types of Jews within the frum community, within the Torah world, instead of it being based on stereotypes, when there's actual interaction, when there's personal contact, so very often that's eye-opening and we realize that yes, of course there are differences between the communities and of course there is heterogeneity, but we realize how inaccurate the stereotypes are and how different the reality is than the stereotype suggested. And how much there is that stereotypes generally elicit more opposition and personal contact often will elicit, will command respect and affection in a way that stereotypes don't. So the rather distant nimshal is that it's easy to have to not, again, appreciate those pockets in the outside world that are important, that are valuable. It's easy not to recognize it and not to appreciate it if there's no exposure. When it is exposed, so then the reality of, fill in the particular legitimate discipline, the reality of exposure to that is eye-opening. And it becomes much easier and we're much better positioned to have that crucial sense of balance in our interaction with, in our attitude towards the outside world and know how to modulate and set the filter accordingly. So that's one perspective. A second perspective, this is more the perspective actually on the value of a college degree than it is on college education, on secular education. The Mishna at the end of Kiddushin, לעולם ילמד אדם את בנו אומנות קלה ונקיה. So what that means practically bazman hazeh, I don't know that this is what it literally means in the context of the Mishna, but what it sort of practically means when transposed to our metzius bazman hazeh is that a person should, מצוות הבן על האב, one of the obligations of a father to his son, is to equip the son to earn a living, to make his tachlis parnaso. And Chazal say it should be an omnus kala unkiya. What that translates to for us bazman hazeh is that it should provide a good parnassa with a good work-life balance. There are some things which don't really provide adequate parnassa. There are other things which provide more than adequate parnassa, but don't have the right work-life balance. And an omnus kala unkiya in the way that translates in our terms is that it's a good parnassa with a good work-life balance. You know there is a very understandable and on one level noble inclination that idealistic people can have and do have, which is, you know, the world is, we're not here for gashmius and I don't want to think about money, I want to focus on dvarim ruchniyim, on Torah, on avodas Hashem. And whatever, eichshehu, when the time comes, I'll deal with it. So the best way to accomplish not having to think about money is to have a good job and have enough money, and then you don't have to think about money. And rachmana litzlan, I don't mean this humorously, rachmana litzlan, the people who spend the most time thinking about money are the people who don't have a good job and don't have enough money. And the way to make money a non-factor and a non-issue and a non-focus in life is to have enough of it. It doesn't mean that one has to be wealthy, but to have enough that there isn't a crisis every time a bill, and some of them are unplanned for, when a bill arrives in the mail. For many, for many, many people, maybe most, not all, but the path to an omnus kala unkiya goes through a college education and degree. For most, for many people, for many, many people. the way to access, the way to open the door to an אומנות קלה ונקייה בזמן הזה is with college education and and college degree. A third, a third, third perspective in terms of the here again we're turning not to the value of a college degree but of the education itself. I think it's, I think it's true as I think it's true that Rav Saadia Gaon couldn't have written Emunos V’Deos without having studied Arabic philosophy, and the Rambam couldn't have written Moreh Nevuchim without having studied Greek and Arabic philosophy, and the Rav couldn't have written Ish HaHalacha, Halachic Minds, without studying everything he did and especially Kantian philosophy. Now that shouldn't be misunderstood chas v’shalom to be questioning the the Torahdik authenticity of any of the above-mentioned works and Chachmei Yisrael. There is a remarkable, profound comment from רב יעקב משה חרל"פ. He has this in in one of his sefarim, Mei Marom, I think it's in the Mei Marom on Shemonah Perakim, I think. He writes, he writes it in very poetic language so it needs to be translated into prose, but but he writes that the Rambam didn't just quote Aristotle. The Rambam was first megayer the ideas and then he quoted them. That that's not a verbatim quote, but I I think I haven't looked at it very recently, but but I think it's a I hope an accurate paraphrase. What what does it mean to to be megayer, what does it mean to be megayer Aristotle's ideas? So what it means is that Chachmei Yisrael when they did study, and there definitely was such a tradition amongst Chachmei Yisrael, wasn't the only tradition, there were different traditions, there were differences of opinion amongst the Rishonim, but when those Chachmei Yisrael who did study from the chochmah umos ha’olam, so they did so, they reflected upon everything they studied from the perspective of Torah. And what was wrong, what was antithetical, what what was just useless, so they didn't make the cut, they discarded. But what was productive, categories of thought that were useful for for understanding, interpreting, presenting Torah, so then they recast them in in a Torahdik context. And and as such, you know, when one reads the Rav's writings, so you know, one doesn't really need any theoretical arguments as to the value of chochmah, but just reading and and seeing what he does with it is just so overpowering and and so overwhelming. So so that is is definitely a third perspective on on secular education. Honestly, I don't know to how many of us that's relevant. I don't know how many of us to on our own use the secular education that way. A, it requires it requires a lot of lomdus to be able to be discerning and discriminating in terms of what is congenial, what is helpful, what's a candidate for רב יעקב משה חרל"פ גירות and and what isn't a candidate. It requires also a certain, I think, creative bent in terms of seeing the possible connections, uses, etc. So I don't know, it's certainly relevant to yechidim but I don't know whether this is necessarily something that is relevant for most of us. So those are three perspectives on the topic at hand. Just to maybe briefly comment on some of the questions that were submitted. Virtually all of the questions can't be fully answered in such a forum because the answers to most of the questions need to be individualized. So obviously that can't happen in such a forum but just to maybe talk about some of the principles which are more general and would likely be part of every individual's deliberation and ultimate decision. So one of the questions, I'll just read it: For most of us, we can get an online degree in a quicker and more efficient way than at YU. As things become more and more online, it will generally not negatively affect our careers (current open parentheses) depending upon what we study, i.e., business or finance or undergraduate psychology (close parentheses). Why should we stay at YU where it will take us longer and is not a complete yeshiva environment? Would it make more sense to leave YU and enroll in an online college for classes and learn in a "real" (quote, unquote) yeshiva? It's certainly true that one distinctive feature of our yeshiva is its integration, the integration of the yeshiva, of ישיבת רבנו יצחק אלחנן, of the undergraduate Torah studies programs with the different college tracks, Yeshiva College, Sy Syms. That's certainly a distinctive feature and it's certainly significant. But the decision of whether to come here to yeshiva is much bigger and much broader than just the cheshbon which is reflected in this question. Every yeshiva and ours is no exception has a certain character. It has a certain identity. The character of ישיבת רבנו יצחק אלחנן and its identity includes much, much more than its views on secular education and its connection to the college. Again, that's certainly part of it, but there's much more than that in terms of hashkafa, in terms of a derech hachayim. There's much, much more that the yeshiva has always represented and continues to represent. You know, some of the issues that by way of introduction that we spoke about in terms of finding the right balance in so many different areas in avodas Hashem. The balance between talmud Torah and hishtadlus for parnassah. Again, the balance between insulating ourselves from outside influences and the reality that within so many of our own families there are relatives who are not yet frum. Relating to the outside world, which is what we're talking about here, the yeshiva certainly has a character. The Yeshiva certainly has a character and identity in teaching a derech hachaim, imparting a hashkafa and a derech hachaim in that very, very crucial question. Again, not everything, I don't mean to imply that everything I'm going to mention in the next minute or two is unique to YU and can only be found here. I don't mean to imply that. How one relates to secular authorities, the yashrus which is required in terms of following dina demalchuta is certainly part of the character, identity, derech hachaim that is taught and imparted here. The positive attitude towards Medinat Yisrael, not necessarily towards every policy of Medinat Yisrael, but towards the existence of a medina. The appreciation and the kavod to Gedolei Yisrael across the entire spectrum, past and present, regardless of whether or not they're the Gedolei Yisrael who are the moreh derech for our derech or not. You know the fact that in a shiur from Rav Schechter you can hear everyone quoted from Rav Kook to the Minchas Elazar is something very, very beautiful. And each one is quoted. It requires more than tremendous bekius; it requires that also, not to take that for granted. But it requires more than that also, and not to overlook that second element either. And that's also something very, very beautiful and part of the hashkafa and part of the derech hachaim which is imparted in the Yeshiva. So yes, it certainly is a distinctive feature, the connection that the Yeshiva has with Yeshiva College. But that's only part of it, and I don't think it's even the most important part. I don't think it's even the defining part. It's one of several, several, several different areas that taken together give the Yeshiva its identity and its character. And all of that has to be, when a person is, when a talmid is deciding what the right place is for him to be learning, so it's not as simple as just sort of honing in with tunnel vision just on the college part of the equation. Another question that was submitted: Is there ever a justifiable time for a person to do something in shiur besides pay attention, participate, and take notes? I mean, when else are you going to improve your solitaire skills? So here too, this question touches on a very, very important yesod of ours. Certainly in theory we all know that midos are very important, and behaving in a menshlach way is very important. Maybe some of us have come across the line from the Vilna Gaon that the neshama comes down to this world only to be mishakein midos. That's the avoda of a person in life. Now what would be the following: Let's say I'm hungry, so I need to buy some meat for dinner. So on my block there's a treif supermarket; I can get some treif meat. The kosher supermarket is two miles away. supermarket. I don't have a car, it's going to take me 30 minutes to walk, 30 minutes back, it's going to take an hour, it's going to take an hour and a half. The treif restaurant is mamash right here, it's mamash right on the block. Taking 30 seconds in, there's an express lane out, and that's mamash a bittul Torah to schlep all the way there for an hour and a half to the kosher grocery. Mamash a bittul Torah, no? So I'll just go get the meat. So that לא יעלה על הדעת. But we do that all the time when it comes to the middot. Im ken, so let's say a person's in a class and he's not gaining anything from the class. Okay, let's say that, let's imagine such a scenario. So haval al ha-zman, right? So I'll do other things, but where's the middot? So the same way, the same way observing the halakhot of kashrut requires time, so displaying the right middot can also, not can also, it does also require an investment of time and dedication of time. So if the teacher's, if there's no attendance requirement and the teacher's not makpid and the teacher says you want to come come, you don't want to come don't come, and you don't want to come, so don't come. But if the teacher's makpid on attendance or the teacher wants you to come, so then yes, so maybe you're not going to learn anything from the 50 minutes of the class, so you'll devote 50 minutes to displaying the right middot, the same way you may have to devote an hour to go shopping in the kosher supermarket rather than in the non-kosher supermarket. Okay, I think that that was the end of part two, so if there's some questions, for clarifications, whatever. So what Rabbi said about about the, it seemed like Rabbi was saying if davka in philosophy is not relevant today. Does that apply to natural sciences or also natural sciences? Meaning to most people. Thank you. So I actually had intended to speak about that more broadly. Thank you for the reminder. So we're all familiar with the Rambam in Perek Bet of Yesodei HaTorah:

כיצד הדרך לאהבתו ויראתו. בשעה שיתבונן האדם במעשיו וברואיו הנפלאים

and a person sees the hokhmah

שאין לה ערך ולא קץ, מיד הוא אוהב ומשבח ומפאר

v'khulu. And that not only seems, but that does tell us that study of science is something that will be me'orer ahava and yira. But mi-idakh gisa, ha-hush mak-khish. Seemingly. I don't know, we, and not just because we see and know of scientists who are very very far in ahavat Hashem and yirat Hashem, but even in our own experience, I don't know, for some of us, high school biology was not necessarily the most favorite memory to dwell upon or whatever, and we don't necessarily in thinking back feel that we were inspired to ahavat Hashem and yirat Hashem. But mi-idakh gisa the Rambam says it is, so what's the kashia? So the lashon of Rambam is בשעה שיתבונן האדם במעשיו וברואיו הנפלאים. That's the lashon of Rambam. The lashon of Rambam is not בשעה שיתבונן האדם בעולם בבריאה הנפלאה. It's be-ma'asav u-vru'av ha-nifla'im. If a person has a certain, I don't know, let's call it God consciousness, if a person has a religious consciousness, if a person interacts with the world, he sees the world, he views the world, the lens through which he sees the world is that's the Ribono Shel Olam's v'ri'ah, so then that then what the Rambam says follows. And that's why the Rambam says as he does. Certainly for someone who doesn't even recognize the Ribono Shel Olam and for whatever negios, for whatever reasons he has these blind spots, so lav davka that studying science is gonna enlighten him and is gonna dispel those blind spots. And even someone who chas v'shalom doesn't have those blind spots and is a maamin, but not necessarily on the level of that once he sees the world, he sees the world as maaseh of His upualo of His haniflaim, so lav davka also it may leave him cold and he may wish that the world didn't have photosynthesis and it would make his life a lot easier in studying for this bio test, you know? So there too, it very much depends upon the individual. Is it potentially a source? Yes, so that's mefurash in the Rambam. Is it actually a source? That depends upon the yachid as to whether or not he views it and reacts to it the way the Rambam is describing. Do we believe that any truth that's found in psychology or in other disciplines can be found in the Torah? Chochma bagoyim taamin? Do we believe that goyim can come to that conclusion on their own, but of course anything that's true is in Torah? Or can goyim come to true conclusions that we believe to be true even though they can't be found within the Torah itself? So and there's a sefer Shaarei Talmud Torah which is just a likut of mekoros, of mareh mekomos, no editorializing, with a long list of very, very, very distinguished haskamos. So I believe that in that sefer he has a machlokes, he cites sources of a machlokes of what it means in Avos when it says הפוך בה והפוך בה דכולא בה. So some understand הפוך בה והפוך בה דכולא בה that again all truth in the world is in the Torah. And others say no, הפוך בה והפוך בה דכולא בה in terms of religious knowledge and that's lav davka that every you know that the way to design a successful vaccine or what the best treatment is for certain psychological conditions, lav davka that that's in the Torah. So that I think that's a difference of opinion. We've been talking a lot about sciences and that and how that is very clear in the Rambam, meaning that a lot of that can be seen like you see Hashem's bria that way. Does everyone think that this applies to more like the humanities also? It's again, it's part of perspective number three which again I think is certainly true, but relevant to yechidim is my impression rather than to most of us. You know the humanities, let's say literature, can be different things. Sometimes literature is a sort of philosophy which instead of being written as a treatise is written in narrative form and in the form of a story and it's clear that certain ideas are being presented and in that sense so im yirtzeh Hashem in terms of the potential value of the literature other times is intended as a critique of society. I think it's who's it I think maybe And what was the impetus to the war? That the two nations who are looking to destroy each other, so the fight was when you crack an egg, so the total of the egg, so one end of the egg is sort of thinner and the other one is wider and thicker, and the dispute was where you're supposed to crack. And this explosive issue is what sparked this all-out war between the two countries. So literature is often a commentary on society and as such in terms of highlighting weaknesses in human nature and what have you, so it has value there also. You have to go, I'm not sure, I think most of those things are not being written today, I think most of those things were written a while ago, I'm not sure how valuable things that are being written today are. I've heard you mention a few times more like a pragmatic sense that we should expose ourselves to the general world, the outside world so that we can relate to non-frum Jews. Is there, as you mentioned, that we have the ability to relate to family members who aren't necessarily as frum? Is that just practical or is that idealistic? So what we discussed is again that one of the areas in which you have to strike a balance is let's say you have this, let's say parents are Baalei Teshuvah. So that means that their children's grandparents are not frum. So on the one hand they want their children to be exposed to wholesome pure Torah influence. M'eideh gisa, one cannot, should not disenfranchise one's own parents and cut them off from their own grandchildren. So that's one of the areas in which one has to navigate and find what the right balance is between those two, again it's not just pragmatically, it's the right thing to do, it's the right thing to maintain the family relationships, but it requires on the other hand it can't be indiscriminate, so one has to navigate and find what the right balance is between those two. How is a person supposed to display good midos when he's in a class and the teacher starts teaching things that are uncomfortable with his hashkafa? So if it's something that so maybe talking about the topic and also about your question, but not intending everything to respond to the question. So first of all again if a person could anticipate that, so then he wouldn't take that class and would, I don't know, and speak to his Rebbe and the dean of the college as to why there is such a class. If a person didn't know and does it sort of stumbled into such a class, so again, depending on the specifics of what's being said and because of that it's impossible to generalize, if it's bad enough don't go to that class, but if it's bad enough so the person should just leave and again go talk to your Rebbe and figure out what the best way is moving forward, maybe the instructor is unaware that it's offensive in which case maybe a person didn't have to leave, maybe a person could just raise his hand and I mean it's a judgment call depending on who the instructor is, what's being said, maybe the instructor is unaware of the fact that it's offensive and maybe a simple respectful polite. Let's say that's not the case. Hopefully it won't happen. Let's say it's not the case. So then I don't know, it could happen that a person would have to leave. Again, I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Hopefully that would be a last resort, not a first order reaction. Sometimes I think, especially if the the teacher is new to YU and is not so attuned to what the sensitivities are. Sometimes it's not being done maliciously, but I think it's done just out of ignorance sometimes and they will respond to a non-confrontational, respectful request. If that's not the case, then that's a big problem. If it's really, really bad enough, so then a person, I mean you have to stand your ground, I think a person would leave if it were bad enough, if it rose to that level. And then I think you talk to your rebbi and you figure out the plan, talk to the dean, talk to how to how to try to address and redress the situation. Given that many people haven't achieved the level that Rabbi was talking about before about appreciating Hashem through various secular subjects, which secular subjects should be standardized and to what extent should they be standardized across the levels of the education system? The question is an excellent question. I don't think I'm ready to give a good enough answer, other than to just endorse the premise of the question, that in thinking and talking about the value of secular education, that we shouldn't make the mistake of just sort of transposing what, I don't know, what the Western ideal of of education is and just transplanting that and transposing it. It should be based on our values and our Torah considerations, what that should be. But the question is too good, I'm not ready to carefully enough respond. To clarify based on the question of humanities, does Rabbi think there's a fundamental difference between the sciences, math, things that can be proved with truths, formulas, studies as opposed to literature, poetry, art, music, things that are more subjective and can be appreciated, or both of those, if used properly, can connect to Hakadosh Baruch Hu? Is there still a difference there? And if there isn't, then when Chazal say chochma bagoyim taamin, is that more a loose definition or did they mean something more specific and concrete when saying what chochma is in terms of non-Torah subjects? In Chovos HaLevavos, in the Hakdama, talks about the seven branches of wisdom. So obviously that would be one source in terms of, music actually is there, but I don't think music meant what we understand today with respect to music. Music was, going back to the ancient Greeks, something that was considered mathematical, in terms of Pythagoras or something like that. So the Chovos HaLevavos... Now of course there is a difference between those those those two disciplines. I think lehavdil, lehavdil, lehavdil, the Ramban writes in his hakdama to Milchemos, he says that there are no teshuvos nitzchiyos in the sense of eternal but in terms of absolutely conclusive. Sometimes you can have a machlokes rishonim and as we know from every shtickel in Reb Chaim and both of the both views both sides of a machlokes rishonim are equally cogent equally compelling as p'shat in the sugya. So so there is some so in in learning as the Ramban says don't expect in Milchemos when I defend the Rif, don't expect me to defend the Rif in a way that makes his view the exclusive view. I'm going to defend the Rif that his view is legitimate and correct and valid but lav davka to the exclusion of other views. So lehavdil, lehavdil, lehavdil, so obviously that's a difference between geometry. Geometry you can prove, you can prove you know that the two angles are you know are equal or the two angles are not equal and you don't have that type of proof in in in humanities. So certainly that that is a a major difference which is why humanities can and sometimes do very often deteriorate into worthless batel s'varos because because of the nature of the of the of the discipline. You know the stock market goes up so one day the Wall Street is happy about this and the next day Wall Street woke up in a bad mood and so the economists tell you that the you know the stock market is unhappy so you can say this way you can say that way. No one's going to... So of course there's a difference and in that sense even you know I think the the modern conception of science is is that that science is giving you a model of reality as opposed to reality. Isn't it that that science gives you a construct which accounts for for what happens in the world but but it doesn't it doesn't presume to say this is the absolute truth? Even that the scientific theories can be falsified they they make statements and they make predictions which which are open to not to verification but they're open at least to falsification. Again which is something and in that sense there's obviously an objective dimension which doesn't exist in in the humanities and that is a very very big difference. I don't know that that value you know I don't know that we're necessarily talking about that it directly connects a person to Hakadosh Baruch Hu, you know to to read a book and and come away with an understanding of of something about human nature. I don't know that that directly connects a person to Hakadosh Baruch Hu but is it value does it have value is it is it sort of part of a it can be a link in a chain it can be a link in a chain. I'm not sure that the test is always you know immediate connection but there are lots of things that have value because they're you know they're a link in a chain they're part of the process but there is a very very very real difference between those types of you know those types of disciplines and you know where exactly the you know the social sciences want to be considered sciences you know those on the natural sciences don't think they're sciences. Okay so that's that's a whole machlokes and increasingly when one sees today how how things which are part of the social sciences are just so politicized it makes the case harder to make that that they're sciences. Are there any secular books or secular authors that Rebbe personally has found value in? There are lots of such... You know, one of the, one of the things that the, I don't know, Maskilic historians like to do is to say, well, the first time, you know, they'll they'll look through the Gemara or whatever and say the first time you find the mention of pikuach nefesh is at such-and-such a point in history and how can it be that there's no record of it before. So okay, so one is taken aback. So there is, I haven't, I read a very, very small part of this book, so I can't tell you what the book as a whole is, it's kosher, and I can't I can't put an OU on it, I hope it is but I don't know. I read a small part. So there's a book called The Singer of Tales. So two people went out to Yugoslavia. I think I don't know if they were anthropologists or I forget what their field was, and this was their their fieldwork. And and they studied the local culture in Yugoslavia and they came up with a chiddush atzum, an absolute chiddush atzum. They discovered that that there in Yugoslavia they I think it was in Yugoslavia, somewhere far away from here matter of fact, I think Yugoslavia, I'm not positive. That that there were a lot of them were just shepherds who they were illiterate, they were illiterate. And but there was this tradition of that they used to have these stories which were set to, which had a tune, hence the title The Singer of Tales, and they were passed down orally from generation to generation. And this was a chiddush atzum that such a thing as a culture which is oral and not written. Chiddush atzum. So if you ever meet someone who didn't grow up with you know, learning Torah and and knowing about Torah she-ba'al peh and you know, needs help in acclimating to it or needs guidance in responding to these kinds of absurd distortions as to well the first time you find this mentioned is this century that century, well obviously Torah is is an oral culture and and you can't look at written records when you want to date an oral culture the same way these two, again I forget if they were anthropologists or what their field was, the same way they couldn't document this these Singer of Tales with any kind of, with any kind of written documentation. So there are lots in so many different fields there are books here and there, but you know, a little bit depends upon you know what you do with it and the associations you make, so I don't know if I can really give a list. Just to clarify the question about online courses, it leads to if a person could learn three sedarim a day in yeshiva here and take online courses, are you saying that that would be a preferable option since they can get all of the other aspects that Rebbe described about the yeshiva? No, because again, the answer has to be individualized. Maybe yes, but but maybe no, it depends on whether maybe it depends upon whether some of the other perspectives we spoke about are relevant or not. I couldn't, I couldn't give a bottom line on anything in this in this kind of forum because the answers to these types of questions all need to be individualized. Might that, might the answer be yes? Yeah, the answer might be yes, it definitely might be yes. Will it be yes? I don't know. That's a different story. Okay, maybe just one or two and then we'll stop. Rebbe spoke about the need to be discriminant and filter out problematic ideas and things like that, and reading the classics. I think most of us think of those things in kind of more blatant or categorical like issurim, like things related to ervah or apikorsus or emunah, things like that. I was wondering if Rebbe could speak to maybe the more like subtle or like other ways of characterizing what the concern might be of common ideas besides those kind of more apikorsus-y or extreme examples. Biases can be blatant or they can be subtle. Sometimes it's not necessarily what's said explicitly as a certain attitude which is an undercurrent. You know, if one reads something in Jewish history and, again, so if one reads about Tkufas Tanach or Tkufas Chazal, if one's reading the wrong author, so it won't be subtle, it will be blatant, what's unacceptable. Hopefully one's not reading that in the first place. But one can be reading about medieval and the attitude in talking about the Rishonim is not the attitude of Yiras Shamayim that one has in approaching Rishonim. And it's not always inevitably it will result at some point in also saying the wrong thing, but there are attitudes also. In reading some secular books, there are certain, again, the way things are sympathetically portrayed can be something, again, it's not as blatant, although let's say one of the, just about every high school reads it, I think many high schools read it, I think many high schools read it, The Scarlet Letter. Did you read that in high school? Anyone? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so L'mayseh, one of the elements of The Scarlet Letter is that the woman who committed adultery and the priest with whom she committed adultery are portrayed sympathetically and it's only her old, mean husband who's portrayed demonically. Now that portrayal isn't that portrayal isn't accurate, but the sympathy and sort of making them into heroic figures, I mean it was Oy vey, Afra l'fuma from our perspective on what happened. So that it's not in the lines, but there's a certain attitude and I don't know, I think most high school kids maybe miss that, so it's okay. So maybe it's okay. I don't know, Ein ani yodea, maybe not. I don't know. But there can be subtle things also, you know, which are sort of... Yeah, that's why it's very important to be able to be discerning and discriminating. Okay, maybe this will be the last one. Yeah. Usually, parents like to see the better grade, they're a bit happier, so is there any incentive to Kibud Av V'eim that working harder, spending more time studying whatever to produce a greater grade, people throw in that phrase Kibud Av V'eim because they want to see a higher grade. My sense is that in many cases we don't even sort of necessarily get to that question, but I know often, not always, not always, but often it will be the case, you know, that for other reasons you're Bishlama you want to have you want to have good grades. I don't know if if a person if his if his path in life, you know... goes through graduate school so obviously he has to live without coming to terms with is it k'dat Moshe v'Yisrael. He has an interest in in in doing as well as he can. So I think often the question will not arise. In general, in terms of kibbud av v'em, the chiyuv of kibbud av v'em, there's there are things which are a chiyuv in terms of kibbud av v'em and there are things which which where there's a kiyum of kibbud av v'em but not necessarily chiyuv. So the chiyuv of kibbud av v'em is basically to provide service to the parents. That's the I think the the dominant aspect of the chiyuv of kibbud av v'em. That ma'achilo umashkehu, if the parent needs, with elderly parents the parent needs help with eating and with the drinking, with with with the shopping, with getting getting about, machniso umotzio, so is rendering physical service. When in their presence, the honor is the chiyuv to stand for one's parent etc. In in terms of חיוב כיבוד אב ואם, there's no chiyuv to it doesn't doesn't really mean in terms of the chiyuv it doesn't mean necessarily to, I don't know, do everything possible to give them nachas in terms of the חיוב כיבוד אב ואם for one. Is there in terms of where there's a קיום כיבוד אב ואם, so that's that's a much broader definition than the chiyuv of kibbud av v'em. I think one of the acharonim on the side of the page in Yoreh Deah in kibbud av v'em, I forget who, says let's say a person wants to practice a certain middas chasidus, I don't know, wants to fast for example, and somehow or other his parents become aware of it and for whatever reason his parents are opposed, so he says that one shouldn't engage in a middas chasidus if it's something that's going to be metzar the parents. So not because there's a חיוב כיבוד אב ואם there, but he's saying that there is a קיום כיבוד אב ואם and that takes precedence over this middas chasidus. He doesn't give that example necessarily, but in case that's not a good example, I don't know, and it's not, it's not his example. Here too there are other things to be considered in terms of is this kind of compartmentalized, the parents want the grades or is it that they want the grades, they want other things which ultimately becomes too intrusive, the question would have to be fleshed out for the answer to be individualized. Thank you very much.