Q&A at RIETS Yom Hakahal, March 12, 2023

Not to steer the conversation in any particular direction. Someone volunteered to me during shiva a psak in the Lidmei Adam Gadol which I wondered whether it was being accurately represented. That without any kind of differentiation, without any kind of nuance, so the psak that was volunteered, not requested, the psak that was volunteered was that when it comes to a Rebbe interacting with talmidim, so on Purim or be-khlal during the year, that aveilus shouldn't impose any constraint. And if the Rebbe dances with the talmidim ordinarily on Purim, so he should dance when he's in aveilus on Purim also. Whatever he would do, he should do regardless. I can imagine that maybe the Lidmei Adam Gadol said it in a certain context, maybe with a certain type of talmidim, a certain lack of alternative, maybe, maybe, you know, the question as to when a person's whether a person's aveilus shouldn't interfere with shibudim that he has. But what seemed so off the mark is, and I think it's the yesod transcends this particular context of aveilus and these dinim is, I just asked him, so who teaches the talmidim how to observe hilchos aveilus? It's all fine and good that I don't know, you have to show the talmidim, but who teaches the talmidim hilchos aveilus? I don't know, and again I don't think the yesod is limited to this particular example or the context of hilchos aveilus. Let's say, I don't know, sometimes some people have a shita that as parents, so one of their primary obligations is to be mechanech the children in kibud av va-em. So they, you know, they ask the kids to do things and they drill into them, you know, Tati says so, Abba says so, you got to listen, you got to listen, you got to listen. Okay, so one hears that. But there's also a din in Shulchan Aruch, the Mechaber or the Rama says there, that parents are not supposed to be machbid aleihem on children. Adaraba, parents are not supposed to be demanding of children, they're not supposed to ask from children, they're not supposed to be machbid aleihem. So if the parent is so busy being mechanech the kids for kibud av va-em, so who's being who's being mechanech the kids for how they're supposed to act when they become parents? This sort of, I don't know, imbalance in terms of and, I don't know, tilting towards one side in anyway, not me-inyana d-yoma but just it was intended intended just to break the ice, not to steer the conversation in any particular direction. Just hearing a very stirring surreal drasha from the Rav, maybe along the lines of what you just spoke about, in terms of saying over Sippur, it's more than just teaching over limud haTorah, but transcribing your teaching a more experiential and how do you best convey that to children? The Rav was speaking more than just limud. I think, I think what he meant it was a leitmotif of you have in some of the written works also, you have that famous passage in U-vikashtem Mi-sham, you have it also in the posthumously published English book Abraham's Journey, the beginning of it also about, we don't, we're not looking for archaeological evidence of Avraham Avinu, he's a living reality. So I think the way it's done is let's take what seems to be a less, less demanding challenge than making the past come alive. So how does a father, how does a Rebbe transmit a passion for Talmud Torah? So he can't give a shiur and say you've got to be passionate about Talmud Torah. If he's passionate and very genuinely so, it's contagious. The passion that the Rebbe, that the father has for Talmud Torah is contagious and then memaila the sons, the talmidim become infected. And I think the same is true for that dimension that the Rebbe used to talk about. If, if we relate to something as a living reality, as opposed to a historical record, if we relate to it as a living reality, so then I think that's what our kids see it as. And so it's, I don't think it's a question of being noeh doresh, I think it's a question of being noeh mekayem in terms of the transmission. I think elsewhere when the Rav talks about, I'm not sure whether he said it in the longer clip, he said that basically he didn't consider this the pshat al derech hagadda, al derech machshava, he considered this the pshat al derech halacha because the mitzva is zechiros yetziat mitzrayim. So what zechira means is to remember what a person, I can't remember absent this idea, I can't remember what happened a hundred years ago because I wasn't here a hundred years ago. I can know, I can, but I can't remember what happened a hundred years ago. And the mitzva of zechira is no, the omek shel zechira means is that a person has that sense of identification. The moshal, I think the way we're able to relate to it a little bit is let's say I think we all, whether through our parents, our grandparents, there are certain stories that we heard them tell and relive about their experiences. We've all had that experience, right? Parents, grandparents, and certain stories, experiences that they had that stood out, that stand out in their minds, and we've heard the story enough that we sort of feel that we were there also. We have a feel for it. So again, but it comes from the exposure to someone who feels that way and then that gets communicated, that gets transmitted. We can't give what we don't have. As parents age, so how does one balance the mitzva and the very important mitzva of kibud av v'eim in terms of trying to help them with the desire to make sure that they don't become dependent? Fashioning that there is a healthy aspect of being independent. If, if one's put in a situation where the kibud av v'eim almost... That scenario, you know, sort of needs to be a bilateral effort. I don't know that the child unilaterally can determine that result. Ideally, at every stage of life, once we're not small children, at every stage of life, a person is supposed to strive to be as independent as possible of all other people, and one's sole dependence should be upon Hakadosh Baruch Hu. And that's basically indicated in, that's what when Chazal darshen, Rashi quotes in Chumash, עבדי הם ולא עבדים לעבדים, what it means is that if a person has any other dependence, it detracts from his sense of dependence upon Hakadosh Baruch Hu. If I feel dependent upon you, so to the degree that I feel dependent upon you, I don't feel dependent upon Hakadosh Baruch Hu, I feel dependent upon you. And for that reason, it's really a religious obligation for a person to be as independent as possible in every relationship. You know, when they're able to, children should be, I'm not, I don't mean when this means literally not to accept financial help, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about in terms of a mindset, in terms of doing things for oneself that one can, even minor trivial things like not to ask someone to do something for you. If you want something from the refrigerator, to get up and get it from the refrigerator rather than having someone else do it. A person should be as independent as his health allows for, and that's, it's very, very important. And optimally, ideally, that's important to the parent, and because of that, the child is certainly not looking to in any way diminish that independence. You know, the reality of old age is usually, not always, but usually is not how it's depicted in the storybook when Little Red Riding Hood comes, Granny seems to be, or she would have been okay if not for the wolf, she seems to be doing okay for herself. But the reality is that usually it comes with very real challenges. Very few people at eighty-five are the way they were even at seventy-five or sixty-five, kal vachomer earlier. And then one obviously then things shift, but one is always looking to allow for the maximum independence. At points when full independence isn't possible, so then one looks that it should be done by respecting, again all this needs to be adjusted to the situation, the personalities involved, etc. obviously, but by giving the maximum dignity, because dignity is usually linked to independence and dignity go hand in hand. So even when the independence is not fully possible, to stress the dignity, to stress as much as possible the fact that the child may have to assume certain tasks, but shouldn't sort of usurp decision making if that is still avoidable, and to sort of maintain the elements of independence as much as possible. If the parent needs to be served dinner, do you want to eat now? Do you want to eat in half an hour from now? At least that element of decision-making, which is also an element of independence. So one is always looking to uphold as much as possible, even when physical realities demand certain concessions. What happens if the parent is looking to be dependent? So obviously that's a very different challenge and, again, it's not going to follow exactly along these lines, but the goal is going to be the same. I think the goal is going to be for the, in whatever way possible, to try to serve as necessary aid but not as an unnecessary crutch. But again, everything will be according to the situation and the personalities involved. Turning that question in the other direction, when it comes to raising children, so also there is the dichotomy of, on the one hand, you want to teach the children independence and every child is different and the goal would not necessarily be a mirror image of your father or your mother or what they want. But at the same time, obviously there's a lot of guidance and kids don't necessarily know best and even more so, the Rav was talking about, you're trying to, it's the father and the mother who are trying to write the story on the child. But the child wants to write their own story. And how do we know what's a yesod for guiding where's the line between those two tensions that are built in? So maybe let's continue, maybe let's shift from the analogy of writing to the analogy of building. The parents are building the foundations, then the independence is going to be what's built upon the foundation. The child, yes, ultimately, the child wants and the parents want that the child will make his own decisions in life, but it's the parent's responsibility to make sure that he has the basic emuna and the basic values and the basic hashkafos within which to correctly exercise his discretion, within which to express his individuality. And which is why as the child gets older, the parent's dynamic changes. The Gemara in Kiddushin says either by 22 or by 24 that it's hands off. But I think that's sort of the kav hamashveh between the two, in which level of the building we're talking about. But again, I think parents have to sort of - it also depends upon the child. How much, if at all, do you weigh your child's preference in terms of where he or she goes to high school? It, in large measure, depends upon how mature the child is when he or she is 13 or 14 years old, whenever that decision is being made. If the child is mature, then it should be given a lot of weight. It should be given a lot of weight where the child wants to go. If the child is a little bit more of a late bloomer in terms of maturity, then the parent should take into account what the child wants, but not only because that's something the parent needs to be mindful of, but ke'shel atzmo not necessarily. Related to Rabbi's opening comments in terms of being mechanech about aveilus, is it what's sometimes one sees at shiva houses where the aveilim and the minachamos, sometimes they're reminiscing, or shmoozing, or having with the kids this that, do we say that each of... kind of copes in their own way or should really the focus be on the meis and is there a set of guidelines for aveilus? Does it necessarily hissach hadaas? The only reason an avel doesn't go outside, that's not one of the inuyei aveilus per se, that's to ensure lo yessiach da'as. So the American, probably Western, not just American, but the Western approach towards death is one of denial. People are not buried in cemeteries, they're buried in memorial parks as though they're having a picnic that's going on for 200 years as opposed to as opposed to being interred. Even I think what there's now a push for above-ground burial, so it's less jarring. It's it's also a form of denial. So we've been affected by that, so we think that nichum aveilim means distracting the avel. So we talk about everything but, everything but, and given the nature of nichum aveilim in the sense that people who you haven't seen for so long, you know, it becomes a reunion, it becomes a family reunion, it becomes a class reunion. But there aren't objective guidelines in general. Even when all of Halacha is, you know, objective norms for subjective experience, that's what all of Halacha is, and aveilus is no exception. In general, you know, mitzvos which every mitzvah can and optimally should be experienced, but but sort of the dimension of experience is not the same in every mitzvah. You can eat matzah absent some kind of emotional experience, it's still it's very meaningful. Is it ideal? No, but you know, no I mistama, I don't know what Rav Chaim was thinking when he ate his kezayis and I don't know what he was experiencing and obviously, you know, the mitzvah of achilas matzah for him was on a different level than than for us. But what we do is not bad, what we do is not bad if we sit down and eat a kezayis matzah, that's a very good thing, that's a very good thing. But there's some mitzvos where absent the experience, it's just an empty shell, it's hollow. And we don't do so well with such mitzvos. We're too we're too quick to, I don't know, excuse ourselves from making the effort, you know, aveilus, nichum aveilim is one example. On the other end of the spectrum, tefillah is another example, you know, where where the mitzvah becomes a hollow empty shell absent, you know, the inner experience. I don't know, we we, you know, basically that's the idea that the Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah say in Berachos that even if we hold מצוות אין צריכות כוונה, it doesn't apply to saying a beracha. That's what he's saying. What he's saying is that there are some mitzvos where most mitzvos, achilas matzah without an inner experience is not empty. Again, you know you're doing it lesheim mitzvah. You're doing it lesheim mitzvah, that's a very meaningful experience even if a person can't and doesn't elevate it to Rav Chaim's level of achilas matzah. But in but what Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah say is, but to say a beracha and not know that you're saying a beracha and and not sort of relate to thanking Ribbono Shel Olam with this beracha, without that sense of, I don't know, we we don't do so well with those mitzvos, we don't do so well. Right. But speaking for but a question of kibbud av v'eim and chinuch, put that together, what does someone who's raising children with parents and let's say that the parents, the grandparents sometimes model behaviors or speech To minimize contact with the grandparents or or to be does it make sense to tell the explain to children that this is wrong? Is there at some point maybe or is that something that could be avoided in certain very extreme situations because on the one hand you want to express Kibbud Av v'Eim, both objectively and just effectively that you treat your parents with a special respect. Again all these things need to be individualized and it depends upon the kid, but kimdumani that by and large, first take one step back. Sometimes you know a Kav HaShlishi is to choose the occasions, again as you said obviously it isn't an option to exclude grandparents, it's not an option on any level, it's not you know even supposedly in the name of chinuch, that's not chinuch, and it certainly one has no right to deprive grandparents of seeing, interacting, having connection with grandchildren. So it's not an option. Me'idach gisa, I don't know, let's take, I don't know, some extreme example, let's say I don't know the seder is not a proper seder, the Shabbos is not a proper Shabbos. So the Kav HaShlishi sometimes is going to be okay so you find different occasions instead of going for the seder, mah d'lo havel you go for Thanksgiving, you know, where that, you know, isn't an issue. Again everything is be'mida u'mishkal. The fact that the seder is not 100% exactly the way the parents would run the seder doesn't mean that a substitute needs to be found, but let's say it's really night and day and it's just not a proper seder, you know the sippur yetziat mitzrayim is 15 minutes and then you know the meal is three hours with sicha biteila. Take an extreme example. Okay so then you sort of substitute other times and occasions. You substitute Mother's Day, Father's Day and all other or maybe if it's appropriate stam Shabbosos, Chol HaMoed, whatever contextually makes sense. Sometimes that's a Kav HaShlishi. Let's say it's something which it's not so much that it directly affects the children such as what the seder is, what the Shabbos table is, but it's more just being exposed to a certain example. I don't know, let's say that the grandparents don't dress the way the parents would like to see their children dress or something like that. So that's already very different when it's just more question of being exposed to an example albeit an example within the family which is very different than just seeing it on the street. But that's very different than you know where the seder is not proper. There, again sometimes it doesn't happen, but I think ruba d'ruba it does happen when the parental home is a good one, in the sense that the parents are consistent in their values, they're consistent in their behavior, they have a good loving relationship with their children where they command respect, not demand respect, but they command respect. So then the children see, the children see and as they get older so they understand that people are not perfect and you know that and because people are not perfect relationships can't be contingent upon perfection and you know we don't only love our grandparents if we agree or endorse everything they do. No one lives in such a cloistered environment they don't see examples that run contrary to the chinuch they're getting. So what does it come down to? It comes down to if the parents commanded respect so then the values get instilled in the kids and I don't think they're going to by and large they're going to dress the way the parents taught them not necessarily by the different example that the grandparents may be setting. Maybe those are some of the guidelines. Okay, were we supposed to be stopping now? Yeah, I think so. 3:50 we were supposed to stop. All right, okay. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you very much.